tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post1752748658965151778..comments2024-03-28T07:28:58.459-07:00Comments on The Breeding-back Blog: Defending the Konik against an unfair critiqueDaniel Foidlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02924677790606716751noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-56806038597312327762015-12-08T01:11:21.249-08:002015-12-08T01:11:21.249-08:00For all people interested in my research on the Eu...For all people interested in my research on the European wild horse and the origin of the Polish konik, see the book presentation at: http://semper.istore.pl/en_US/p/From-kaikan-to-konik/23076145<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17158185164040701834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-72356071176669377872014-02-16T10:14:43.942-08:002014-02-16T10:14:43.942-08:00just send a mail at 123@haalhout.nl or haalhout@li...just send a mail at 123@haalhout.nl or haalhout@lineone.nl<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839009412604983532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-50532559509972514852014-02-16T03:59:21.519-08:002014-02-16T03:59:21.519-08:00Gerben,
I think the muppetshow got a little mixed...Gerben, <br />I think the muppetshow got a little mixed up in your YT-links ?!<br />and the audio is not that exceptional so "i have to listen very carefully "...<br />but Cis V. didn't seem to come up with a persevering defence....<br />I missed your questionary and that of pr. Han Olff<br />but thanks for the provisioned clips, allthough I still would like to read the whole doctorate<br />and if possible, with comments.<br />Peter Donck<br />Don'Quihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454547941630146972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-21593900704089790092014-02-15T12:11:57.032-08:002014-02-15T12:11:57.032-08:00the Muppet show:
1) http://www.youtube.com/watch...the Muppet show:<br /><br />1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeHatgzjMLw promotie Cis tjitze van Vuure 2 opponent professor dr Louwe Kooimans <br />2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcjUV5d4GVU Promotie Cis T van Vuure 2 aan de VU 09 02 2014 opponent professor Han Olff <br />3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8t1kth0ens Promotie Cis Tjitze van Vuure 3 opponent prof dr Jos Gommans <br />4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jJ9iEExLqU promotie Cis T van Vuure 4 aan de VU 07 02 2014 drs drs Gerben Poortinga opponent <br />5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HFs9Ngp_Mw promotie Cis tjitze van Vuure 5 opponent professor dr Petra van Dam <br />6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jJ9iEExLqU Promotie Cis T van Vuure 6 aan de VU professor dr Jan Vermaat opponent Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839009412604983532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-60499618627289986932014-02-11T06:29:12.894-08:002014-02-11T06:29:12.894-08:00I was invited by the VU (Free University) to act a...I was invited by the VU (Free University) to act as Cis van Vuure his opponent at this promotion 7-2-2014, see photo link on my facebook. <br />But his thesis sucked. Although he worked on it for 13 jears Cis van Vuure stated, I think the VU failed in assisting and education. It was a pack of citations larded with speculations and insinuations. Thats why I sought after some sane thoughts on the web, and I found a goood summary here.<br />If you send me a mail I give you a link to 5 fullhd films of this session and (suppose you can understand Dutch) you can hear that he is not able to anser any question on an accademic or whateaver level. <br /><br /> https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1/1890993_582595825156881_568846256_n.jpgAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839009412604983532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-20082018851517752512014-02-11T03:44:12.748-08:002014-02-11T03:44:12.748-08:00I'm very keen on C. v. Vuure's new book on...I'm very keen on C. v. Vuure's new book on the Konik to come as well!Daniel Foidlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02924677790606716751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-77305352643332014252014-02-11T03:17:18.459-08:002014-02-11T03:17:18.459-08:00Gerben, do you know if there will be shortly a pub...Gerben, do you know if there will be shortly a publication of the doctorate of Cis Van Vuure on the "wild horse" ? I appreciated a lot his "Het spoor terug, de Oeros".<br /><br />PeterDon'Quihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454547941630146972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-20567029787098391752014-02-10T14:47:44.808-08:002014-02-10T14:47:44.808-08:00I total agree your comment Daniël. I chose the kon...I total agree your comment Daniël. I chose the konik in 1980 for his qualities and not for his claimed status. For nature building, wild herbivores and vegetations in coëvolution, it is a marvelus race. Not the only, the genepool of horses is bigger and valuable. Every claim on "THE" narrows the possibility to resque. Genen and environment have to match and is is difficult but also challenging to find the best solution. The soil where I introduced the Konik as a "wild horse" was verry fertile. So there exmoors and icelandics were less suitable because of hoof problems for instance. Elsewhere we did use exmoors with good result en there are more environments and more races. Gerben PoortingaAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08839009412604983532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-50185338932667130842014-02-01T18:55:53.325-08:002014-02-01T18:55:53.325-08:00While reading The Dream of Lhasa: The life of Niko...While reading The Dream of Lhasa: The life of Nikolay Przhevalsky (1839-88) Explorer of Central Asia by Ronald Rayfield I noted the following on page 98: A group of a hundred or so Russian Old Believers moved out of Siberia [1861] to a place in Central Asia called Lob Nor, but insect-borne diseases killed most of their horses so they moved to a placed called Charkhalyk. Quoting the author: "Only after further attempts to settle there, farming and hunting kulans (which they called Polish horses), even crossing the Altyn Tag to settle in the Gas oasis, did they give up their promised land." This raises questions about what kind of "Polish horses" could they have been referring to and where had they seen them. Obviously they were making a loose comparison, but were Polish horses with primitive markings and pale color that numerous in the Russian Empire of which Poland was a part? It is true that these Old Believers could have actually been in Poland for a while, since they were dispersed far and wide due to persecution. Incidentally, Przhevalsky never collected any specimens of "his" famous horse. He saw only a few of these very wary animals but never succeeded in shooting one. He must have been terribly disappointed, as he loved to kill animals. Some other Russians did manage to ship museum material back to Russia, and in the 20th century specimens of Equus przewalskii were captured alive and sent to the estate of Falz-Fein in the Ukraine (Askania Nova).William J. Morrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14379485444887668530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-76330164336826561172014-02-01T06:48:26.854-08:002014-02-01T06:48:26.854-08:00A spotted horse camouflaged in a snowy forest.
h...A spotted horse camouflaged in a snowy forest. <br /><br />http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/65/6553/QXT4100Z/posters/lynn-m-stone-appaloosa-in-snow-illinois.jpg<br /><br />http://www.kimballstock.com/pix/HOR/01/HOR_01_LS0012_01_P.JPG<br /><br />http://farm1.staticflickr.com/80/261058003_66fe6d3d0b.jpgJose Miguel Pintor / Mail: jose.m.pintor@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475224672885323135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-11213479861254393442014-01-26T11:21:59.070-08:002014-01-26T11:21:59.070-08:00but Pruvost didn't mention that appaloosaspott...but Pruvost didn't mention that appaloosaspotting is polygenetic and only the gene for appaloosa-roan had been defined (Lp), and this alone does not account for the spotting as seen on the pics jose miguel poste here. The hypothesis is that certain pattern-genes (Ptn1 and 2) are responsable for the specific leopard and blanket patterns.<br />Besides this, homozygosity for Lp makes the horse nightblind and that is not a condition very advantageous for survival.Don'Quihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454547941630146972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-44294302986360446632014-01-26T11:16:44.164-08:002014-01-26T11:16:44.164-08:00oh yes, it all still puzzles me ! I think best wou...oh yes, it all still puzzles me ! I think best would be to do some simple DNA-testing on the known A, a and At, as well in koniks, sorraias, sorraiamustangs, dulmener, fjord, exmoor, dartmoor, hucul.... and see what comes up. But still as long as the genetic makeup on pangare-bay nor on dun in all it's features has not been distilled, I think all is largely up to guessing and hypothising.<br />Remember the drawings of the pigment in hairs i mailed you, it would be fine to retest those microscopic findings on the same breeds (and more) and with the results thereoff search for the genetic clues....<br />Somehow there must have been 1 basic color that made evolutionary changes of witch the equides could profit or was not negatif for their survival.<br />I still wonder if the bay you find in "old breeds" like exmoor/dartmoor is the same as we see in most riding horses or ponies. The same goes for "dun", is dun in "old breeds/strains" the same as in modern horses.....<br />The more I see and learn on horsecolors, the more questionmarks rise, and for sure, different genes are responsable for similar expressions, mimicry and such which makes it all harder to define.<br />I do not think we need more crossings, we need more research ! Horses allover are allready such a mixup from all directions across the world, and if we have to judge on written parts, you'l scarcely will find anything reliable older than Columbus.....(sigh)Don'Quihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454547941630146972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-88639115276000512522014-01-24T11:44:58.814-08:002014-01-24T11:44:58.814-08:00Thanx for your reply. I am familiar with the Bota...Thanx for your reply. I am familiar with the Botai culture. But although horse remains there are considered by some to be domesticated, there are others who believe that the remains represent wild horses corralled and controlled, and not fully domesticated. I am aware though that recent analysis has revealed traces of horse milk on pottery shards. There are some interesting similarities between some artefacts of the Botai culture and those of European and Mediterranean cultures. Such as geometrical motifs and shield idols of goddess figurines. In addition the Botai seem also to have constructed round barrows and cairns, often in cemeteries identical to those found throughout the bronze age in north western Europe. Clearly there is allot that is not yet understood about prehistoric societies or how technologies associated with civilization were transmitted. Domestication being one of those technologies. <br />I am sure that you are yourself familiar with arguments that horse domestication began in Iberia. <br /><br />I look forward to your next post....Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04545917501859035212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-8647054537012388642014-01-24T08:08:33.236-08:002014-01-24T08:08:33.236-08:00The study I cited above showed that all of the tes...The study I cited above showed that all of the tested breeds (25) had the same Y haplotype, and this set of breeds included european as much as near eastern and asian breeds. It seems only logical that the stallion that inhabited this haplotype lived near the domestication centre of the horse, in the Eurasian steppe. I think its extremely unlikely that this haplotype present in such a large representative set of breeds, including eastern asiatic ones, came from a british wild stallion. <br />But more importantly: there is the consensus that the wild horse disappeared from Great Britain at the end of the Mesolithic. The subsequent horses to arrive on the island were domestic horses of the bronze age. Daniel Foidlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02924677790606716751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-87740408602541984512014-01-24T07:33:52.165-08:002014-01-24T07:33:52.165-08:00In the above text you mention that "A 2004 s...In the above text you mention that "A 2004 study [4] showed that a large number of breeds have the same few Y chromosomes, including the Exmoor (and therefore ruling out that it descends from British wild horses " . Is it not conceivable that British derived stallions were exported into Europe in the early bronze age. As at that time and until the present day a great deal of trade has gone on. See Facing the Ocean by Barry Cunliffe. <br /><br /><br />Thanx again for another entertaining read.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04545917501859035212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-39140397323299246662014-01-24T03:54:58.847-08:002014-01-24T03:54:58.847-08:00Yep, Pruvost et al. 2011 suggest that this colour ...Yep, Pruvost et al. 2011 suggest that this colour was present in Pleistocene wild horses, based on the presence of the LP allele and cave paintings (Pech Merle IIRC). I am not so sure about Holocene/historic wild horses, I don't think their camouflage would be very effective in "recent" Europe. If they were present in historic wild horses, writers probably would have considered them escaped wild horses or hybrids. Daniel Foidlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02924677790606716751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-11701547037435563082014-01-23T18:47:47.723-08:002014-01-23T18:47:47.723-08:00Image of Altai horse.
http://en.ria.ru/images...Image of Altai horse. <br /> http://en.ria.ru/images/17364/50/173645035.jpg<br />Image of snowy forest.<br /> http://t1.ftcdn.net/jpg/00/04/20/32/400_F_4203297_WaDVQ0dZtvLJqjfg5k4c1Ntz4hGfZw9w.jpg<br />Image of camouflage clothing. <br /> t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5Harg9I59NqanuRh2_zWDk4iBQgho3ygHDeb0C29d_LqyjYN0&t=1Jose Miguel Pintor / Mail: jose.m.pintor@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475224672885323135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-28463910153330754872014-01-23T18:13:50.483-08:002014-01-23T18:13:50.483-08:00Hello. What do you think about spotted horses? The...Hello. What do you think about spotted horses? The Altai horse race has many spotted horses. I think the Altai Horses have that color because well<br />camouflaged in snowy woods of pine and fir. In<br />Siberia most of the year there is snow so maybe color Altai horse evolved for camouflage in snowy forests.<br />Could be the same with some other horses in Europe in ancient times?Jose Miguel Pintor / Mail: jose.m.pintor@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475224672885323135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-2576917456921889772014-01-23T09:53:54.308-08:002014-01-23T09:53:54.308-08:00Thanks!
Selecting out both parents is a good idea...Thanks! <br />Selecting out both parents is a good idea, I wonder why I haven't come up with that yet. you write "seal brown-pangarebay", does that mean that the very prominent pangare like in the Exmoor is present only in seal brown horses but not so much in bays? <br />If Koniks are At+D and not a+D, how do these Exmoor x Konik crosses fit the picture? https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/497x357q90/823/1zvg.jpg It looks much like bay dun but since one of their parents is an Exmoor, it must be At+D (phenotypically, of course), but their colour does not look like that of the Konik at all. Furthermore, Koniks never have a mealy mouth, but why should dun affect the mealy mouth on a seal brown base colour if it is not affected in bay dun horses? <br />Maybe a classic mendelian test could give a clue whether the colour of Koniks is black dun or "darkbrown dun" as you suggest; crossing some horses which are homozygous for bay dun with black horses, breeding the F1s to each other, and 1/4 should show a black dun phenotype. If that results look like a Konik's colour, we could assume it is black dun that causes the colour of the Konik. The same could be done for what dun + darkbrown would look like by crossing bay dun horses with darkbrown horses (which one is dominant over which in that combination, by the way?). What do you think about that?Daniel Foidlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02924677790606716751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-45708706827244268492014-01-23T08:41:20.409-08:002014-01-23T08:41:20.409-08:00very nice article, Daniel !
on sorrel : if one wan...very nice article, Daniel !<br />on sorrel : if one wants to purge this color from the genepool, than not only the sorrel foals should be taken out, but also both parents, since chestnut (or sorrel) is recessive, both parents attribute to the color. Same counts for black, since "a" (non-agouti) causes no differentiating between black and red parts of the body, but is also recessive to "A" (plain bay) and to "At" (sealbrown-pangarebay).<br />I believe the grulla color of koniks (and other) is not really black+dun (EEaaDD), but rather darkbrown+dun (EEAtAtDD), but ocasionaly "a" can be present leading to black horses cropping out. Probably "EEaaDD" is overruling the dunphenotype....<br />There is really more research needed on the genetics of dun.....Don'Quihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454547941630146972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-69010987993327463182014-01-23T04:12:12.728-08:002014-01-23T04:12:12.728-08:00I didn't know that breed before, thanks for te...I didn't know that breed before, thanks for telling me about them! I had a look at some photos, they look quite good and wild horse-like. I guess they are very hardy too, I think they should incorporating in substituting the wild horse in Europe and the Russian steppe. Daniel Foidlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02924677790606716751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-91656123331974947092014-01-22T13:59:38.700-08:002014-01-22T13:59:38.700-08:00Hello there, do you know something regarding the ...Hello there, do you know something regarding the Russian Vyatka pony (Вятка лошадка) ? For me they look quite primitive, with very good physical characteristics and interesting set of colors. Some look quite like Konik, others pretty much like Exmoor and some others like Fjord.<br />What do you think?<br />Best regardsJoão Ferrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00063093928645460505noreply@blogger.com