tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post2679475191584160568..comments2024-03-28T07:28:58.459-07:00Comments on The Breeding-back Blog: The Origin of MaronesaDaniel Foidlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02924677790606716751noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-27693492315206972212020-11-25T11:47:01.550-08:002020-11-25T11:47:01.550-08:00This paragraph presents clear idea designed for th...This paragraph presents clear idea designed for the new visitors of blogging, that really how to do running a blog.buy erection pillshttps://besterectiledysfunctionpills.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-26360338171823025592020-11-25T11:35:27.867-08:002020-11-25T11:35:27.867-08:00Excellent post. I was checking constantly this blo...Excellent post. I was checking constantly this blog and I am impressed! Very useful info specially the last part :) I care for such info much. I was seeking this certain info for a long time. Thank you and best of luck.top erection pillshttps://besterectiledysfunctionpills.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-4652773615832842462019-01-13T07:24:12.621-08:002019-01-13T07:24:12.621-08:00
I guess that I have read somewhere, that we don´t...<br />I guess that I have read somewhere, that we don´t know which breed is closest to the aurochs, genetically speaking. To know, you would need LOTS of aurochs samples from different locations and fully sequence all of them.Alex Fernandezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15870346676653267365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-13202749074506067472019-01-12T03:25:00.165-08:002019-01-12T03:25:00.165-08:00What about pajuna ? The closest breed to auroch ac...What about pajuna ? The closest breed to auroch according to DNA ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-69793583039434666742019-01-11T09:13:04.902-08:002019-01-11T09:13:04.902-08:00Ok, but I also note a difference in the horns (con...Ok, but I also note a difference in the horns (configuration and size), particularly between Barrosã and Arouquesa. In Barrosã horn grows more upwards than any other of these breeds and are also bigger. Arouquesa bulls have quite short horns, by the way.<br />Maronesa also sport more short trunk and a bigger hump on average, but this can be due to the type of management. Some are very alike Lidia cattle on this regard.<br />Regarding the claim that Maronesa can derive directly from a type of aurochs, I guess it stems from Maronesa association website. But you also see similar claims around Sayaguesa and Iberian Fighting bull. And probably about some more other cattle breeds. By the way, if you are familiar with Iberian Fighting bull world, you probably should come across several claims... One is done by the people which breed this cattle, on which they sometimes say that they are protecting a species, the aurochs descendent and not a proper domestic cattle breed. Some also simply say that lidia bulls comes directly from the aurochs and that they survived until our times.<br />mccostahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06524943129416041231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-28993979395766684342019-01-01T11:50:34.158-08:002019-01-01T11:50:34.158-08:00https://autoctones.ruralbit.com/index.php?esp=1&am...https://autoctones.ruralbit.com/index.php?esp=1&pais=pt<br />https://www.ruralbit.pt/conteudo.php?idm=66<br />https://ilustracoes.ruralbit.com/<br />https://ilustracoes.ruralbit.com/catalogo.php?r=91Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-41989146046023332912018-12-29T12:27:03.476-08:002018-12-29T12:27:03.476-08:00I think that the similarities between Maronesa, Au...I think that the similarities between Maronesa, Auroquesa (particularly this breed and Maronesa), Barrosa/Cachena and Mirandesa are quite obvious. The biggest difference is that Maronesa has a more melanized coat colour (which depends only on one allele or two and is thus not that considerable) and that the other breeds are more bulldoggish but that is only a difference of degree. A continuum between Mirandesa and Alistana-Sanabresa is plausible too and would not touch the discussion on the other hand. Daniel Foidlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02924677790606716751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-36061475183701835282018-12-29T08:59:58.462-08:002018-12-29T08:59:58.462-08:00It doesn´t rule out but also doesn´t support it ei...It doesn´t rule out but also doesn´t support it either.<br />Anyway, like I said, yes it´s possible to that there was probably a share of breeders, like it could have happened between Barrosã and Maronesa, or they just simply have a old paternal connection.<br />Like I said, to have a definitive answer, we need something more than this.<br />Barrosã appears (maybe) a bit more mixed than Maronesa, by the way. But that´s only discernible to me, at the paternal level.<br />Maronesa also doesn´t seem to be more mixed at the maternal level, but data is too scanty by now to know it.<br />I only remember that Mirandesa have been placed very close to Allistana-Sanabresa. Some individuals are in fact very alike and some authors suggested that they stem from the same population.<br />Arouquesa don´t remind me particularly of any other cattle in Portugal, except that some cows look a bit like Maronesa, but they have a more domesticated look overall (longer trunk, smaller muzzle, smaller horns, etc...) and some cows with higher horns, look a bit like some Barrosã cows.<br />Barrosã and Maronesa, don´t look very alike to me, except maybe some cows. Bulls are very different in general. Some Cachena bulls (dark colored ones) may have some similarities with Maronesa bulls though.<br />Anyway, it´s possible that there was some crossbreeding in the past or share of breeders. Haplotype studies only suggest that one paternal ancestor was shared between Iberian Fighting cattle, Maronesa and Barrosã. <br />Nuclear DNA studies probably would help to solve the mystery.<br /><br /><br /><br />mccostahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06524943129416041231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-92137934085252941382018-12-29T05:04:08.397-08:002018-12-29T05:04:08.397-08:00I doubt that the study explicitly rules out a comm...I doubt that the study explicitly rules out a common origin for those breeds, and even if, genetic markers are not reliable enough for such questions, especially in domestic breeds. And even if there was not a common origin between those four breeds, there was obviously a lot of mutual influence afterwards, otherwise those breeds would not look that much alike. See my example with the retriever-setter-spaniel group. Daniel Foidlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02924677790606716751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-91892881986296814722018-12-29T02:56:08.282-08:002018-12-29T02:56:08.282-08:00
Probably there´s some reason behind what you say,...<br />Probably there´s some reason behind what you say, but it doesn´t seem to be shared by the cattle geneticists that wrote these articles.<br />Also these cattle didn´t always looked like today (at least, many of it) and only the less derived individuals may somehow correspond to a old common connection. <br />I agree though, that genetic markers are not always that significant, mostly when compare domestic breeds, but if these breeds were very closely related, it´s also possible that these studies would suggest a connection.<br />Personally, I think that at least,there´s some scientific basis to support that Barrosã/Cachena and Maronesa, MAY partly derive from a common branch. With all the others, that doesn´t really seem evident (but it´s not impossible).<br />So only future studies probably should clarify this subject.<br /><br />mccostahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06524943129416041231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-4458513308459661022018-12-29T01:43:04.868-08:002018-12-29T01:43:04.868-08:00In any case, I consider those four breeds very lik...In any case, I consider those four breeds very likely to be closely related/of common origin for their obvious phenotypic similarities, genetic markers are not always that significant, especially when comparing domestic breeds. Daniel Foidlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02924677790606716751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-47667238802811298682018-12-28T16:28:14.985-08:002018-12-28T16:28:14.985-08:00The unique haplotypes that I was talking were rega...The unique haplotypes that I was talking were regarded by the article author, as possible evidence of aurochs interbreeding with the local domestic cattle.<br />I wasn´t saying that it proves that Maronesa is different because of that.<br />Regarding a possible old connection of Maronesa with Barrosã, I only know that they share one paternal ancestor (but also with Iberian Fighting cattle).<br />Arouquesa, have both unique maternal and paternal haplotypes, so I can´t comment on a possible relationship between it and the others.<br />The 2014 article actually mentions that people have been very likely making erroneous connections of these breeds based on phenotypical traits, when genetic studies really don´t support those connections.<br />Regarding the evidence that the 3 breeds mentioned on this 2014 study may in fact be 3 distinct cattle, genetically speaking, is on page 28 and it´s written in English. Mitandesa seems clearly separated from Barrosã and Maronesa. Barrosã and Maronesa are closer to each other, but still in well distinct positions.<br />I agree with you though that´s possible that Barrosã/Cachena and Maronesa may have important influences from a common branch.<br />I hope that future studies will give us more light on that.mccostahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06524943129416041231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-50202079719487534352018-12-28T14:24:24.433-08:002018-12-28T14:24:24.433-08:00The haplotypes in Iberian breeds are nice but they...The haplotypes in Iberian breeds are nice but they say nothing about the relationship of Maronesa to other Iberian breeds, particularly those neighbouring with the considerable phenotypic resemblance. Occasional local influence from aurochs was probably present in Iberia as much as elswhere. <br />As regards to the 2014 study, it's in a language I do not speak, but it might be the case that it does suggest that the three breeds are genetically distinct, but that does not contradict a sister relationsip, not even descendance - one could do a similar analysis for the flat coated retriever, the irish setter and the border colie and all three would probably come out as three distinct breeds. That doesn't say much about the actual breed history (the flattie was bred using border collies and irish setters). That is not to say that I believe that Maronesa necessarily was bred using Barrosa and Mirandesa, I am just saying that there is good reason to believe that Barrosa/Cachena, Auroquesa, Maronesa and Mirandesa share a common origin somewere in the 19th century and same region, among other reasons because of the obvious phenotypic similarities. Daniel Foidlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02924677790606716751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-38244811831467293452018-12-28T10:20:27.662-08:002018-12-28T10:20:27.662-08:00More:
https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/vp...More:<br /><br />https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/65cc3b5f69d09a7e7accda6f6e686b5b/5CCC0F7B/t51.2885-15/e35/41271911_1399316980170853_4325286874596769792_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com&se=7&ig_cache_key=MTg3NjA0NTE1Nzg4ODkxOTE1OA%3D%3D.2<br /><br />https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/1374c6b28ec1821a9c30cfa3f45c24ee/5CCA733E/t51.2885-15/e35/25022714_319329768569186_8142285449411428352_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com&se=7&ig_cache_key=MTY4MTE1NjM2NDIwOTkxMjk1Ng%3D%3D.2<br /><br />http://i65.tinypic.com/30acd9g.jpg<br /><br />https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/0561d095edb7d93dc83ab86277e427d1/5CD9AF6F/t51.2885-15/e35/39312157_308141273098100_6564991068239036416_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com&se=7&ig_cache_key=MTg1ODI1NzQxNjQ3OTY0MjY2Nw%3D%3D.2<br /><br />mccostahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06524943129416041231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-2834364253909933322018-12-28T10:12:01.579-08:002018-12-28T10:12:01.579-08:00Like in Maronesa, there are some variations in Aro...<br />Like in Maronesa, there are some variations in Arouquesa (of course that Maronesa seems to be more complete if we compare with wild cattle.<br />Here are some cows:<br /><br />http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-m_rkd0qLf0Q/VHNlk1PBm5I/AAAAAAAABe8/So4Arr32Ol0/s1600/IMG_7887.JPG<br /><br />https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTdCTpBeFvAlUh8EKohu4XlGjmBDHrRxI6X6REcPWEwsQ5ax3b5<br /><br />https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Tg3g7slpZ14/maxresdefault.jpg<br /><br />http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lWahICnmHDc/VAtbmAwK6yI/AAAAAAAADNg/Q3YB8dUv-hQ/s1600/Cabril_17%2BSet%2B2011_Cabana%2B%26%2BRoxa%2B.JPG<br /><br />https://cm-cinfaes.pt/media/k2/items/cache/ca0cf11bf5690b02c0c2b544bd40355c_Generic.jpg<br /><br />http://oscaminhosdejacinto.pt/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/os-caminhos-de-jacinto-ra%C3%A7a-arouquesa.jpg<br /><br />https://www.visitbaiao.pt/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/baiao_terra_sabores_posta_arouquesa_1-327x218.jpg<br /><br />https://www.pombaljornal.pt/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/vacas-2-747x420.jpg<br /><br /><br />https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/d55a4f0700a934817fc247d3bddb41f4/5CB4E362/t51.2885-15/e35/43985673_345418902881602_5321838644409925632_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com&se=8&ig_cache_key=MTkwNjE3MDUyMDE3NzcwMDIzNQ%3D%3D.2<br /><br />mccostahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06524943129416041231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-39444131317748047632018-12-28T09:01:58.629-08:002018-12-28T09:01:58.629-08:00
Very good post, Daniel!
I agree that Maronesa is...<br />Very good post, Daniel!<br /><br />I agree that Maronesa is also not derived from crossbreeding of Mirandesa and Barrosã, but I also find hardly credible that it derives directly from Iberian aurochs domestication. Probably it´s influenced by Iberian aurochs, though.<br />How do you think that Middle Eastern domestic cattle was, when first arrived at Europe? Like some Corsican cattle, but way bigger? Domestic cattle maybe took more time to reach Iberia, than Balkans or even Italy. <br />But I think that probably it got enough time to pick aurochs DNA from somewhere before getting into Southwest Europe and later probably got more influence from the Iberian aurochs.<br />Well, only time will tell what´s right or wrong.<br /><br />Geog Marinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15324907372468732650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-279163631108612342018-12-28T07:50:50.413-08:002018-12-28T07:50:50.413-08:00I think that there´s someone trying to select on g...I think that there´s someone trying to select on good primitive Iberian fighting bull, here in Portugal! Don´t know if there´s already a herd of it, I should ask him, first.<br /><br />Since this article is so long, the reference that suggests that Barrosa, Mirandesa and Maronesa are 3 distinct cattle breeds genetically speaking, is on the page 28:https://bibliotecadigital.ipb.pt/bitstream/10198/12050/1/Armandina%20dos%20Santos%20Almeida.pdfmccostahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06524943129416041231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-12215665675290586452018-12-28T07:32:57.774-08:002018-12-28T07:32:57.774-08:00 «Apparently, it were the unique Y1 (and even Y2) ... «Apparently, it were the unique Y1 (and even Y2) haplogroups (it should be read haplotypes instead of haplogroups)»<br /><br />Sorry for the inconvenience.mccostahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06524943129416041231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-7122937675047001922018-12-28T07:16:17.592-08:002018-12-28T07:16:17.592-08:00I have seen Maronesa and Lidia, or what we call he...I have seen Maronesa and Lidia, or what we call here in Portugal: «Lide/Touro bravo». Have seen also spanish toros bravos...<br />Lide or Lidia has actually a diverse range of appearance, seems much less homogenous than Maronesa, Barrosã or Raça Preta. Rarely Lide cows, have decent horns like the Wild Cattle, they tend to move sideway a lot and to be very fragile. Some are barely evident. Most cows are too dark, too small. They just tend to have a slender face. Their built can be atletic like a deer, but so Maronesa and Cachena, for example.<br />Lidia Bulls have lots of type of coat colors and body configuration. Many are getting too fat and bulky, bulls may be tall as your belly or at best chest, horns not that great but some have aurochs like type, plus they usually are very small sized bulls, much smaller than Maronesa and Barrosã. <br />Only thing, that could add something is body proportions seen in some bulls, which seem closer to the aurochsen.<br />But you can get that in other breeds, if you select it. Barrosã may have actually a piggy like face, but some have long muzzle, like I have seen on the semen collection stations, which is more evident in some regions. Maronesa is more like a bigger version of Lidia, but closer to the aurochs in about everything, except maybe in face/head size. <br />How easy is to select against or in favor, of certain features is beyond my knowledge. Maybe what you need in Lide is easier to select? Or maybe not, since seems so varied. Maybe if someone has the good idea to select a good herd of it, we´ll see.<br />But I agree with your idea that Iberian Fighting cattle, deserve to be chosen as well, towards a type closer to wild cattle.<br />mccostahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06524943129416041231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1222590081823739642.post-47415257004368566962018-12-28T06:55:44.207-08:002018-12-28T06:55:44.207-08:00Only a old 1993 cytogenetic study, suggested that ...Only a old 1993 cytogenetic study, suggested that Maronesa was a cross between Mirandesa/Barrosã <br />Recent data suggest that Maronesa is very likely not a cross between Mirandesa and Barrosã, because of this 2014 study: <br />https://bibliotecadigital.ipb.pt/bitstream/10198/12050/1/Armandina%20dos%20Santos%20Almeida.pdf<br />And to be honest, I find some similarities between those breeds and also with Arouquesa, but there are also some differences...<br />It´s possible that they got different levels of influence from other breeds, different isolation and also different amounts of aurochs input.<br />Aurochs influence in Iberian breeds seems to be well supported for some years already (via paternal influence, mainly but some studies suggest that there could have been aurochs cow influence as well, in breeds like Arouquesa, for example).<br />Iberian aurochs display both Y1 and Y2 and curiously even mtDNA T, like T3 (and probably some more different haplogroups) which complicates the distinction between domestic and wild. <br />Apparently, it were the unique Y1 (and even Y2) haplogroups found in some Iberian breeds that suggest European aurochs bull input. For the aurochs cow, some very rare Q haplogroups, which were also suggested to derive from the aurochs cow. Some T3 could also possibly represent it.<br />What seems strongly supported, is that many Iberian breeds also display many aurochs specific alleles.<br />A good question is: did they did got it, during their pre-historical migration to Iberia or in Iberia? For some it may matter, not much to me to be honest. Taurine aurochsen seem all closely related to me.<br />But, probably we will know the answer on the next years.<br />Wageningen University will cooperate with Iberian cattle researchers, also to help to solve this mystery.<br /><br />mccostahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06524943129416041231noreply@blogger.com